Oh heck. Assassins. (Mesmer thread.)

[Francis Demeules]

But they still have a weakness thought

[Siren]

Ah, but those weaknesses are the same as Warriors, and hence, any remedies to those weaknesses are the same as for Warriors. ~_^

[Hella Good]

Originally Posted by Siren

You should read up on Assassin skills. We're going to be able to bypass Distortion pretty easily.

And Expel Hexes will only be able to do so much, Avarre. ~_^

I couldn't care less what skills Assassins have- you are either going to get destroyed in seconds by Inpeti and the likes or you are going to have 0 nrg. I bet I can even wand you to death, if that's your thing.

[Avarre]

Originally Posted by Siren

You should read up on Assassin skills. We're going to be able to bypass Distortion pretty easily.

And Expel Hexes will only be able to do so much, Avarre. ~_^

Ok fine. Let me fix that statement.

'A petty thing with two butter knives waving at my distortion'

I'm not overly concerned about assassins. They don't look much more frightening than warriors so far... and counters to them already exist. Restore condition is going to hurt them... so long as that monk doesn't die (guardian ftw).

Expel hexes... is basically twice the power of any hex removal before now. It will be overwhelmed, sure, but it's going to take some doing, if a team is running, say, hex-remover monk (inspired, expel, etc...).

[Siren]

Originally Posted by Hella Good

I couldn't care less what skills Assassins have

And this is why you will fail. Trust me on this. You really need to take a good, hard, long look at Assassin skills.

That goes for you, too, Avarre, hehe. Assassins are going to be much more frightening than Warriors. They already are. You just need to know where to look.

I'm trying to get you guys to consider the possibility that existing Warrior counters won't provide the end-all, be-all of Assassin counters. Don't depend on an Inept build. ~_^

[Hella Good]

I gained over 30k cumulative faction during the FPE. I didn't die to an assassin once... Not once. Not a single time. And, mind you, there was some pretty annoying ones I faced. This encompasses RA, TA, GvG, HoH, and Alliance... Now... if I didn't have the slightest problem with an assassin, I somehow feel I needn't sweat it much...

[Siren]

Originally Posted by Hella Good

I gained over 30k cumulative faction during the FPE. I didn't die to an assassin once... Not once. Not a single time. And, mind you, there was some pretty annoying ones I faced. This encompasses RA, TA, GvG, HoH, and Alliance... Now... if I didn't have the slightest problem with an assassin, I somehow feel I needn't sweat it much...

It's still one weekend, though. You're basing everything on three days. You're selling yourself short if you think that's all the time you could possibly need to make an accurate assessment of how to handle Assassins.

[Avarre]

There is almost nothing in the assassin we haven't seen in previous classes. Physical attacks, conditions, interrupts. Counters to these already exist... although the teleporting factor is new. That's pre-countered by positioning- if an assassin teleports forwards, he can be smashed by the people around you (the kind that care more about the low AL, like wars and eles). I'm more concerned about ritualists because they bring a very different aspect to the game.

[Francis Demeules]

Originally Posted by Siren

It's still one weekend, though. You're basing everything on three days. You're selling yourself short if you think that's all the time you could possibly need to make an accurate assessment of how to handle Assassins.

We're based on what we saw. Consider you too for 3 days (5 if for PvP event). Im sure you haven't tried their full potential.

[Hella Good]

Originally Posted by Avarre

There is almost nothing in the assassin we haven't seen in previous classes. Physical attacks, conditions, interrupts. Counters to these already exist... although the teleporting factor is new. That's pre-countered by positioning- if an assassin teleports forwards, he can be smashed by the people around you (the kind that care more about the low AL, like wars and eles). I'm more concerned about ritualists because they bring a very different aspect to the game.

Meh, e-denial works very well on those. Plus by the end of the event, I was bringing Unnatural Sig everywhere I went. It went a long way in killing those. I do agree tho that they pose a bigger threat than Assas. I must say both Dissonance and Wanderlust can be extremely annoying... On the whole tho, inbetween old and new mesmer skills, I think I'll be just fine. Like I said, there is one thing that works... always... on everything... e-denial.

[Siren]

Originally Posted by Francis Demeules

We're based on what we saw. Consider you too for 3 days (5 if for PvP event). Im sure you haven't tried their full potential.

I haven't tried their full potential, true, but one thing I'm not doing is automatically writing them off as "more of the same." Because they're not going to be more of the same. Anyone who's spent some time either playing as them or even just looking at how various Assassin skills are going to fit together wouldn't be shrugging Assassins off as Ineptitude-fodder.

The old strategies and counters to Warriors will not work as well as people think, especially once Assassins are thoroughly field-tested as opposed to a whole bunch of new players going at it during a weekend event.

And don't be so quick to go e-denial, too. There are ways around it.

[Francis Demeules]

3 days, it is just prefect to me to do a full test on these new professions (5 If I count PvP event). Even with different builds, differents tactics to do their combo, using shadow step to jump in and jump out, they still have, that big weakness that non others professions have. This information, I keep it.

[Hella Good]

Originally Posted by Siren

And don't be so quick to go e-denial, too. There are ways around it.

Should I laugh at the joke or you really mean it? How exactly are you going to get around me unloading an e-denial pack on you before you even get in melee range? I'm curious...

[Two April Mornings]

My mesmer will rock your assassin anyday.

Pretty much any mesmer line destroys the assasin.

[Francis Demeules]

Originally Posted by Hella Good

Should I laugh at the joke or you really mean it? How exactly are you going to get around me unloading an e-denial pack on you before you even get in melee range? I'm curious...

You know about shadow step skills. They can be at melee range right at front of you before you cast any spell. But if they mostly use that Shadow Step I thought, it will be useless to use it.

[Hella Good]

Originally Posted by Francis Demeules

You know about shadow step skills. They can be at melee range right at front of you before you cast any spell. But if they mostly use that Shadow Step I thought, it will be useless to use it.

Yes, I do know about shadow stepping and I do believe it's a core strength of the class. However, it's fairly easy to outsmart it. A lot of people just go on mindlessly chasing the assassin when all that's needed is to stay where the skill was cast. I'll give you that a good assassin- and during the last two events I got a chance to play with at least a few people who seemed to have a good understanding of the basic concepts- can exert control over mobility.

This said, I don't think control over mobility will actually hinder e-denial anyhow.

[Siren]

You guys laugh at me, but having played Mesmer for just as long as you all have (and who knows, maybe longer than some), I can guarantee you that Assassins will have ways around most counters you can throw at them...including e-denial and "any mesmer line." In fact, the e-denial thing is pretty funny. If you're e-denying the Assassin, that's one less Mesmer to target the Assassin's teammates.

Anyway, how's it going to hurt you to develop new counters? What have you got to lose, realistically? New counters (and new philosophies regarding counters) can only benefit you. In fact, the new philosophies and approaches regarding counters are going to be even more important than the actual counters themselves...and pre-positioning won't work enough of the time.

How do Mesmers handle enemy stances, anyway? Or general skills that don't have a removable duration, yet aren't attack skills?

Do Mesmers run or generally stand their ground when being attacked? Snares work, right? How would they function when the target doesn't even have to use the ground?

How would Mesmers handle spell interrupts (or interrupts in general) if they can't even hit their target? Or if they can't cast in general?

What happens when the Mesmer's Monk eventually can't remove conditions anymore? What would happen to the Bleed, Poison, Deep Wound, and Cripple then? Not to mention Dazed and Blind?

Your only survival there, it seems, would be figuring out how Mesmers can kill stances.

Things to think about before you write-off Assassins, folks. And topic for discussion, perhaps?

[Avarre]

Your only survival there, it seems, would be figuring out how Mesmers can kill stances.

No. Wrong.

While assassins pose some threat to the mesmer, so what?

Mesmers aren't going to change dramatically. We'll still mainly be used to take down casters. It will more likely be the necromancers (using the new shadow of fear, and other skills) that will be the direct opponent to assassins and other melee classes.

As it is, warriors and rangers often target mesmers. They can daze, hit, give conditions, cripple, etc. That's basically what assassins will do... and who says they'll even target mesmers? Considering our cast rate and their interrupt styles... not happening easily. More likely used as back-row caster-killers, to hunt monks/ritualists or for flag running.

While the thread implies a 1v1 counter-fightout, in team dynamics all the weaknesses of either class are going to be covered. Mesmers aren't going to specifically spec to kill assassins in 8v8, besides the occasional shackles or diversion tossed on them perhaps.

[Hella Good]

K, let me clarify something. Mesmers are loaded with two main lines of skills. One is meant to counter casters, the other to kill fighter classes. Both are equally potent, altho anti-casters is what Mesmers are mostly used for. The third line is e-denial. E-denial kills all. In fact fighter classes are easier to kill with e-denial, because of low nrg pool/low regen. (I think I mentioned in a previous post Wrack and esp. Shackwrack)

Now, the only reason we got to talking e-denial was because Siren was argueing the case that Assassins will be able to somehow (beats me exactly how) avoid being e-denied. It was an argument based on a one-on-one situation where supposedly both the Assassin and the Mesmer will be fighting each other instead of choosing to rather fight something higher on the priority list like a Monk.

Now back to what Mesmers are used for. There is a reason why Mesmers are probably the most hated and also the most valued class in PvP > they can adequately handle anything. The point that most people in this thread were making was that Assassins don't change that anyhow, even tho they introduce new strategies to the game.

In other words, Assassins are no bigger threat to Memsers than Warriors or Rangers are. No one is going to start picking their hair off... Instead, what we are saying is: "We've got you covered." Whether it's going to be the e-denial we talked about, Illusion builds, Shackwrack, Empathy, whatever... Mesmers have a way to deal with it.

[Siren]

Originally Posted by Avarre

No. Wrong.

If you can't work-in stance removal, either with your Mesmer's secondary or another team-mate, you are completely screwed in certain situations. ~_^

While assassins pose some threat to the mesmer, so what?

Mesmers aren't going to change dramatically. We'll still mainly be used to take down casters. It will more likely be the necromancers (using the new shadow of fear, and other skills) that will be the direct opponent to assassins and other melee classes.

So why would a Mesmer spec into an Inept build? Why would they spec into WarHate at all? Some of the "best" counters to Assassins in this forum have been relying on Mesmer Illusion. It makes little to no sense.

As it is, warriors and rangers often target mesmers. They can daze, hit, give conditions, cripple, etc. That's basically what assassins will do... and who says they'll even target mesmers? Considering our cast rate and their interrupt styles... not happening easily.

And Warriors and Rangers have an easier interrupt style? Apart from HamWar KD (which Ward of Stability will have a dramatic effect upon) and the occasional Choking Gas interrupt (or Broadhead Arrow in Factions), Warriors and Rangers pose less of a threat to Mesmers than Assassins, especially when you're discounting Assassin CasterHate on the grounds of the Mesmer cast rate and the attacker's interrupt styles.

More likely used as back-row caster-killers, to hunt monks/ritualists or for flag running.

I agree flag running will be a major strength of Assassins, but I wouldn't expect them to go after Monks and Rits primarily. They can do assassination almost anywhere. If they see an opening, regardless of where it is, regardless of the character (except Warrior and to a lesser extent, Ranger), they'll take it...including any CasterHate Mesmers inching forward. ~_^

Mesmers aren't going to specifically spec to kill assassins in 8v8, besides the occasional shackles or diversion tossed on them perhaps.

Exactly why I'm saying that Inept is going to be a waste. Why the "traditional" Mesmer WarHate builds aren't going to see as much action as some here are suggesting. And if Mes is throwing occasional hexes their way, two or three hexes won't be enough to shut them down, especially when the Mesmer's Necro buddies are disabling other melee characters.

Originally Posted by Hella

E-denial kills all. In fact fighter classes are easier to kill with e-denial, because of low nrg pool/low regen.[...]Siren was argueing the case that Assassins will be able to somehow (beats me exactly how) avoid being e-denied.

Because Assassins can get around those exact "figher class" energy limitations. To counter that, you need to figure out how they can get around it. ^_^